Forums › Introduction to Philosophy Discussion Board › Narveson and Singer ought go for a swim
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Cole
I must admit I find the notion from the video that Narveson suggests we all be sociopaths or would not jump into the pond rather perplexing. I guess it is solely because I interpret Narveson’s cost/benefit categories differently than the video; as an elaboration of examples? Narveson himself deems it a characterization and I don’t really see anything that signifies that these are co-consecutive rules that must all be met, just an explanation that these are some examples of why “time of need” can be a misleadingly simple concept and thus its obligation should be restricted. Ultimately I admit I think Narveson puts a distasteful spin on what he is saying because of this but this is a mirror image of Singer, who could be charged oppositely in not giving any leads as to deriving his moral weight. Narveson perhaps could have strengthened his argument by sticking to “time of need”/”cost-benefit” instead of going off on his “characterization”. But his characterization and our subsequent disagreement with it in some sense simply further proves why we should heed his worries about individual differences. I see in both thinkers’ nuances that I need more information on, particularly the nuance of “obligation vs ought”, to reach a conclusion on where they stand absolutely and in fact whether they are even different at all. But from my understanding of the excerpts both Narveson and Singer clearly ought to go for a swim.
From the standpoint that Narveson’s “cost-benefit analysis” is functionally the same as Singer’s moral weight, Narveson and Singer have equivalent ought principles, and when the same premises (moral weight/ cost-benefit says jump in) are plugged in the same output is garnered as far as ought goes. In this manner both Narveson and Singer can be said to clearly recommend, should, ought, to jump into the pond at the cost of becoming wet, for anyone who recognizes such a cost/weight disparity. Narveson’s view only suggests that a sociopathic person, in following their own cost-benefit analysis, would not derive an ought/should, and would perform sociopathic actions as a sociopath. This is reasonable and I see no reason as to why it wouldn’t be the same conclusion Singer’s principle would reach if a sociopathic person carried out Singer’s moral weight analysis. In this manner, the only difference between Narvesons ought principle and Singer’s ought principle is that Singer stretches the principle beyond ought to obligation after originally only using the word ought in his principle formulation. From this, it could be said Narveson is in complete agreement with Singer’s principle and all the ought it entails but not the further distinction that it is an obligation or a matter of justice.
However, Singer does not explain his shift from ought to obligation or what that means while Narveson explicitly does. This presents a further problem of transliteration across excerpts. Just as I don’t understand what is in the text to suggest that Narveson would not recommend jumping in, in the hypothetical situation of Singer’s, there also isn’t really anything in Singer that strongly points to considering those who do not make the jump to be criminals (he only states they have done wrong and the excerpt cuts off… although it would appear Singer has no moral neutral and thus not-good is automatically doing wrong?). In contrast, Narveson makes it clear he would recommend to any normal person to jump in and save the child but not say that they should be charged with a crime for not doing so. Narveson would say “sociopath Jeff” is un-virtuous but not a criminal, on the other hand, Singer suggests sociopath Jeff is someone who “has done wrong”. In contradistinction to Singer, Narveson states only if we are the cause may we be obligated or must we do something. Narveson appears to find such a leap of Singer’s & his own version to the level of obligation problematic because indication of obligation, must, necessity, or law begins to reach toward justice and enforcement. Hence his limitation of must to things we directly cause, which we do in fact generally place under the rule of justice and accept resulting punishment through law.
In my opinion, Narveson could be said to fail in scope as he does not do justice to the reality of recognizable shared needs as expressed in the video, and presented above, probably out of fear of grounds for enforcement, or reduction of his “Liberty”. However, Narveson presents an argument that does justice to the multifaceted nature of experience and the potential lack of knowledge we may have as actors. Singer can be said to fail in his scope, as his hypothetical pond is a strawman that ultimately does not extend to our complex world satisfyingly enough to be able to easily extend this “should” to the level of obligation or perhaps “law”. However, Singer does justice to the fact that in the modern world, we simply do often know well enough what we ought be doing, or may agree on as good, but fail to act in a way that reflects this and perhaps need a push or should feel more obligated to carry out what we recognize to be good. In a way, we may say Narveson gets into trouble leaving the pond and Singer gets into trouble staying in it. I am curious as to how expansions of the text would affect my understanding of their terms and conclusions. I like Narveson’s open-endedness but if Singer explains obligation weaker than Narveson seems to, I see no reason not to agree with Singer over Narveson based on their underlying similarity and Narveson’s somewhat irrational yet simultaneously understandable fears. Given these issues, Caputo’s non-deducible/pre-rational definition of obligation provides much respite from the frustrations of both Narveson and Singer. Very interesting, and perhaps one of the most beautifully written bits of philosophy I’ve ever read, with a largely separate worldview to both, that presents solutions to the frustrations above but with frustrations of its own.
What am I missing here? Is this just all on account of my understanding of Narveson’s characterization? Is it something to do with the definition of a sociopath? If a sociopath was by the pond and followed Singer’s principle is there something baked in it I am missing that makes the sociopath know what to take as morally good even in their mental condition? Is it because Narveson’s examples suggest analysis of moral weight is a solitary activity and Singer doesn’t explain how we decide moral weight but perhaps elaborates elsewhere? -
My polemical rant against Narveson’s supposed advice to the pond “Jeff” is based on his statement that “it is unreasonable to take matters beyond that” as an ultimate condition that seems to trump all the others. The others could be seen as case-by-case applications but the “it is unreasonable” line seems unequivocal and applies to his “recommended” cases. That simply floors me. Now, as with most of his rhetoric, could he be the victim of, again and again, needing an editor and misspeaking? Perhaps. But those words are damning.
As for Singer, two things should be said:
1. The “scale” is purely me. Taking his “ought” and giving it gradations from “obligation” to “recommendation” to “heroic” based on the comparisons of moral costs is all me.
2. Singer tries his best to make his “principle” intuitive and uncontroversial. But, of course, as a committed utilitarian, the melting of the lines between recommendation and obligation is one that fails to be easily translated. The utilitarian avoids that distinction.As for (lowly) me, I think we should all internally debate the great divide between our intuitions and our moral thinking/behavior. I mean, we all (I hope) think it is a no-brainer to rescue the child in the pond, but then we are faced with Singer’s principle telling us that we should apply that thinking to how we fail to be charitable. Narveson summarizes our moral behavior really well, and his argument is a decent presentation of how we think when we ignore others in need. To my mind, though, I want to think like Singer (and Caputo) and not excuse these moral failures I constantly enact. I would rather fail at an ideal than defend my failures.
As for Caputo, I’ll just quote him: “My view turns on a cold truth. That this child [in the pond or in El Salvador] deserves to live a normal healthy life is not a law written in the stars, because the stars are indifferent to the child. The child’s life thus is a disaster. She has no star to watch over her, no heavenly support. She is out of luck. But the upshot of this nonfoundationalist line of reasoning is not that anything goes, but only that the things we favor and endorse-like this child’s right to a healthy life only go so far. If you try to push too hard the claim the child makes upon us, it will not hold up. It is not written in the stars; it has not dropped from the sky. The claim of the child is finite and fragile. It is not absolutely commanding-not a Categorical Imperative that breaks through the world of appearances, nor the Form of the Good gradually being recalled, nor the traces of the Face of God showing up in the child’s face. Were any of these very beautiful hypotheses true, we would, perhaps, not let the conditions flourish under which such disasters occur with such savage regularity as we do. What law there is to come to the relief of the child is inscribed only on the face of the child, which is the face of suffering, and it does not extend beyond the singularity of the child. The child herself is the only law. …”
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Cole
Okay this is very helpful. The unreasonable statement
“Just as anyone can kill anyone else, so anyone can benefit anyone else; and so long as the cost to one self of participating in the general scheme of helpfulness is low – namely, decidedly less than the return – then it is likely to be worth it. But it is not reasonable to take the matter beyond that.”
is something I didn’t circle in on this makes things more interesting and damning. I will retort that it does appear (based on location) to be referring to “cost-benefit” analysis generally as referenced just after the semi-colon. With this, I thought Narveson’s point was if actions don’t create surplus good (in other words if they are net negative for actor (net negative on enacted would be his causal obligation) or neutral exchange, i.e. do not manifest more “good”) than it is un reasonable to suggest what you are doing is virtuous or perhaps “should be done”. But maybe this is just too lawyery. I will agree I don’t think Narveson is mis-speaking on his own behalf, it is clear I went too far in that direction in original post after what you have said, and I do agree he wants to take his should in reductive manner in the sense Singer wants us to take a similar principle and use it to reach out further through dropping in the further determination that we are obligated. I get the sense that all of this hinges on whether people can be morally neutral or not, Narveson says yes, Singer says no? I agree and like that Singer gives us an Ideal/star that even if we fail to meet we end up being better/land on the moon. The only real problem I see is that it starts presenting grounds for government to enforce/impose justice on those who fail to land on the star. Honestly, this may just not be the case at all, I don’t know enough about morality, justice, or politics, but as a layman that would appear to be the value of Narveson’s counter employment of the same principle. I see Narveson’s wroght ignorance of obligation and Singers wrought ignorance of damnation as mirroring each other. I don’t think I could ever sleep again if I went full Singer. Caputo kindof seems to offer a relieving synthesis to me in that he presents the particular or non-universal nature of moment like Narveson but also posits the pull of the suffering or unconditional obligation kind of like Singer but without universal law. But then again the same problems are also kindof sucked up into it… does my encounter need to be close?… or is it like Heideggerian space/close… but thats just Narvesons people close in relation…how do I recieve the call well… what if I have five incoming calls…How do I practically apply this…
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Cole
Okay I am a dunce I didn’t catch the oneself in the quote until the quiz today
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Cole
well atleast how “return” is technically subsumed under “oneself” (although the hyphens detract from this confusingly) thus he is not speaking of return in a global/general sense
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Hi Cole,
Wow, nice find. I was having a hard time figuring at why you were being so charitable to him. I mean, it is moto of mine that I should always be charitable when I read people smarter than me (it is good to assume that they are: a) seeing something I can’t, b) answering a different question than I think they are, or c) assuming something I am not.) With Narveson I settled on the latter and thus attack his assumptions with ferocity.
I keep thinking about a line of thought you brought up initially that I didn’t know how to address: “Obligation” implies a threat of sanction/punishment.
Narveson leaves room for sanctions for failure twice. First, for a libertarian, failing to repay a need you caused usually calls for a lawsuit against the offender. Second, he says that someone who doesn’t help someone in need when it is easy to do so is someone that we should ignore when they are in need. This second one is a pretty standard psychological trait in humans…you know, our hunter-gatherer moral instinct that wants to protect our society from freeloaders. But, I would argue, Narveson is, again, defending our usual behavior, but I wonder if we should be defending this behavior so quickly. I wonder: If (big IF) we have the resources to care for the freeloader without hurting ourselves, why shouldn’t we provide for their needs? I’m not sure, but it is worth thinking about.
On the Singer side, I do not see any implied sanctions for failure beyond personal moral guilt. And this is another topic worth debating. For example, when you look at trials in “Truth and Reconciliation Commissions”, full confessions are common because the usual threats of punishments are removed. And since such confessions are of huge benefit to the victim – and more beneficial than seeing the perpetrator punished by the “state” for their offenses against the state – it seems worth it.
This is a larger topic I used to think about often when I was doing more social-political philosophy: whether we should put greater emphasis on responsibility and less on punishment. Isn’t it funny how quickly our intuitions think those two things have to be connected?
For example, I think we should be quick to point out and discuss our own and other’s moral failures but not attach punishment or shame to it. It is healthy to feel guilty and want to redeem oneself, but it is unhealthy to feel shame and want to punish oneself. The threat of punishment just makes people want to deny wrongdoing instead of being honest with themselves or others.
Fun anecdote: In many “leaver” societies, the usual teenager “crimes” are not punished. The teen who is caught stealing something small is confronted and forced to repay but there is no social/legal punishment beyond that. I would argue that, generally, being caught, being forced to confess, and being forced to repay are the best ways to rehabilitate the perpetrator and produce the most benefit to the victims. The idea that the “state” needs to enact punishment for the perpetrator offending the “law” might be a ridiculous way to think of crime.
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Cole
Yes haha I Must apologize I knew there was something I was missing but it wasn’t until the quiz I was using the same quote again and it hit me and I was like oh OH oh no Narveson’s wording is very selfish. Soooo embarassing. Really hoping Logic & Critical Thinking this summer will make things like this happen less form me haha. But, in the end, I do feel like I have done my best to understand these excerpts and find great enjoyment in coming to understand them from within. I am not going to forget them anytime soon. Thank you very much for your help. And yes I figured Singer wasn’t a fan of sanctions although it is interesting to think what differentiates ought and obligation without such. I find it weird that Singer formulates his whole thing with ought and then slips in the obligation right after real quick. Its like he couldn’t help it but also didn’t want to make the plunge either. Like most philosophical things I could just accept it means just something a little stronger than ought and move on but it seems like a cop out. The point about responsibility vs punishment you have made is something that makes me think in this area. Responsibility as internal drive instead of external. Or is responsibility a reflection of external society within us? What is a conscience?… I get very preachy about forgiveness and rehabilitation over punishment, I think people today forget how easy it is to punish someone they do not see face to face (digital age/globalism) and also in tandem fail to see the needless/unhelpful damage it causes. Stoning “Mike” who bags my groceries is much harder than some vague person. I find it bizarre how hard people will fight today to prevent a path of redemption to those they deem to have done wrong. The older I get the more I find that education fundamental to who/shaping who people are, and at least within my educational experience punishment holds little value. Sometimes it feels like we are doing the equivalent of taking dogs who misbehave and instead of educating them, throwing them out doors which is bad enough, but sometimes they even go on to be raised by wolves. I am just making things up at this point but my gut says there is something vulgar and animal about punishment as a whole that suggests it should be done only to the animal brain for best results, in other words within thirty seconds of the action to be punished. So I agree, long drawn out punishment for a teen for stealing at a gut level strikes me as bizarre and am curious how psychology explains things.
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